Three Lions Legend John Barnes ponders what England’s players and fans can expect under German coach Thomas Tuchel as he prepares to make his international managerial debut against Albania and Latvia at Wembley.
Speaking to PokerScout.com, Barnes also discusses the most challenging week in Arne Slot’s Liverpool tenure and why back-to-back defeats against PSG and Newcastle in the Champions League and Carabao Cup don’t give him any doubts that the Dutchman is the right man for the Anfield job.
Premier League headlines and general questions
Q: Is there a young player that you’ve seen breakthrough this season that looks destined to have a career at the top of the game?
John Barnes: When you’re talking about youngster that look like they will have top careers, I’m quite excited by the two Arsenal youngsters Myles Lewis-Skelly and Ethan Nwaneri. Those two have been fantastic this season, and both are really young, 18 and 17 respectively.
Lewis-Skelly has been rewarded with an England call-up, and Nwaneri is in the u21s with Lee Carsley.
But interestingly, Liam Delap, I think, has done really well this season. A young boy playing in a struggling team.
And of course, Tyler Dibling as well, which is interesting because he’s at Southampton and they’re struggling very badly, but he seems to be a standout player.
Nwaneri has been great and so has Lewis-Skelly, but in a team that’s playing well. But in a team that’s struggling, it’s harder to demonstrate your ability. I think that Delap and Dibling can play much higher up.
And it’s difficult for young players in struggling teams. That’s when the experienced players can show what they can do but the young players always seem to struggle. They’ve been the bright spark for those teams.
Delap is a bit like Haaland, isn’t he? He played at Man City as well, so I don’t know whether he was actually looking at him. I like him. He’s got a lot of confidence for a young player. He’s a big, aggressive boy.
Those are the four young English players, who, for me, are exciting for the future.
Q: We were speaking about the Balon d’Or earlier. As someone who won one Player of the Year Awards and two Football Writers Player of the Year Award, did the individual honours matter?
John Barnes: For me, the team was always the most important thing. My proudest moments, yes I won Player of the Year (1988), but Liverpool had five players in the team of the year.
There’s a real Liverpool thing, that even though winning player of the year is nice for your ego, I would much rather win the league.
Some players would rather win the player of the year because they want individual awards.
For me, it wasn’t important. It’s good for your ego, but we need our egos to be suppressed now and again. So now we need to be brought back down to earth. It’s nice for your ego but calm down as long as the team wins.
Q: Who are the three players in contention for player of the year with the end of the season in sight?
John Barnes: It really depends on what happens between now and the end of the season.
I know players who have won the player of the season, because they’ve done well between March and May. They may not have done well before, but of course, that’s what we remember; that’s the freshest information.
When the end of the season comes, we think about who’s done well and who’s doing well? Rather than thinking, well they did really well up until January, but then of course between March and May they didn’t, so it really depends on what happens between now and the end of the season.
From Liverpool you have to look at the last two or three matches and Salah hasn’t done much and if he continues to do that maybe he won’t win it.
It’s hard to look beyond Liverpool players when thinking about the contenders because they’ve been the best team in the league and the most consistent team.
Mo hasn’t impressed me more than others. Szoboszlai has impressed me.
Virgil has been really good. It has been a really good team performance. From the end of the season, it really depends on who has done well. The whole Liverpool team has been fantastic. I’d give Virgil more of a chance to be named player of the season because of what he’s actually done. Up until this point, he’s been our most consistent performer.
Q: Arne Slot is the obvious candidate, but who else could rival him for manager of the season?
John Barnes: I think that Nuno Espirito Santo at Nottingham Forest could rival Arne Slot for manager of the year. If you look at what they’ve done and the consistency they’ve shown, and the fact that they haven’t been lucky.
They’ve got a good game plan, they’re organised, they’re well-drilled, they don’t have the household names of players – individuals you would think should be higher and should be doing much better than they are. They are a really great team, and the players all complement each other. Nuno deserves great credit for finding that balance.
Those two for me have been the standout managers.
Q: Who’s in your top five come end of season?
John Barnes: I think it would be Liverpool, Arsenal, Man City, Chelsea and Forest. Maybe not in that order but I think Liverpool and Arsenal would be the top two and then you can pick any three from City, Chelsea and Forest.
Newcastle beating Liverpool in the Carabao Cup
Q: What is the first taste of silverware like for a team?
John Barnes: Well, if you lose next week 5-0 and you lose the week after 5-0, then it means nothing. Yes, you’ve won, but what’s next?
The best teams and players make winning a habit. You have to be consistent if you want to be a top player or a top football club.
Whereas if a player thinks we’ve won a trophy, I can relax now, they’re just going to rest on their laurels and then lose every game between now and the end of the season, and think, that’s okay because we’ve won a trophy.
What big players and champions do is recognise they’ve won, then continue to give 100% and forget about it.
And then of course at the end of the season, or at the end of your career, you may look back and say well you’ve won. But some people want to win the trophy in March and then forget the rest of the season.
If Eddie Howe is going to lose every game between now and the end of the season, I think he’d get the sack. I don’t think he’d be happy if that happened just because he won a trophy.
Q: What did you make of Newcastle’s success?
John Barnes: Liverpool are normally a very physical side who normally outrun, outfight, outmuscle teams, and Newcastle did that to Liverpool which I’ve never seen before.
I think that the Paris Saint-Germain game took a lot out of them, but it was not only a disappointing result, but a disappointing performance because you have to say Newcastle deserved it. They created more chances.
Now normally in football you can’t tell what’s going to happen. If you look at Paris Saint-Germain in Liverpool’s first leg, Liverpool won but Paris Saint-Germain dominated. I’d expect Liverpool to dominate against Newcastle and while they’re dominating possession, Newcastle created the better chances. It was a disappointing performance and obviously a disappointing result.
Obviously, if Liverpool are to lose to anybody, then I’m glad it’s Newcastle. I played for Newcastle, those fans deserve something. They never won anything. Newcastle have been waiting for a long time for a moment like that.
A lot of people have. Newcastle have waited for a long time. Their fans being the fans that they are, they’ve been fantastic.
I’m pleased for them.
Liverpool
Q: What is the striking difference between Slot and Klopp’s approach at Liverpool?
John Barnes: Well, you don’t see much difference out of possession because they still work very hard to win the ball back.
They’re high intensity, you can see Salah, Mac Allister, they all work hard. Mo, Diaz, they work hard off the ball when they lose the ball, and they haven’t got the ball. We are not as intense when we have the ball. We have much more possession.
We obviously are looking at the players like Curtis Jones and Harvey Elliot, and those are players who are much more technical than, say, Milner, Henderson and Fabinho, who were hard-working midfield players that get stuck in and win the ball back and get it forward quickly.
We’re playing in a much more controlled and a slower way. Of course, if you have a counter-attack available, we will do it, but we’re building up through midfield and having many more passes in midfield than we used to. I think that’s the striking difference. We’re a much more technical team than under Jurgen Klopp in terms of the players that Slot likes to use.
Q: Who is the Liverpool legend you would bring back to the club if you had a time machine?
John Barnes: If the time machine is bringing somebody back from my time, who would have been born when he was born, playing when he was playing in the culture, in the system. Which means that there’s only one person and that’s Peter Beardsley. Only because he doesn’t drink alcohol. My other teammates, they wouldn’t have been able to do it in the modern game because they enjoyed the other side of things, but it was a very different game then of course.
Q: Which of TAA/VVD/Salah is most likely to stay?
John Barnes: I think Virgil is probably the most likely and then Mo after that, and I think Trent is probably the least likely to stay. We’d like all three of them to stay.
With Virgil, if you’re looking at his stage of his career now, particularly the player he actually is, it makes sense for him to stay.
Mo is a different kettle of fish because of the age. With the profile he has, you’re looking at Saudi Arabia. I don’t think that is somewhere Virgil would go. I think the Real Madrid situation for Trent, at his age he may feel he needs to take the opportunity.
I think in order of importance for us, for the short term it’s important to keep Virgil, because of the centre-back situation. We’ve got good young centre-backs that need guidance.
From an attacking perspective, you’ve got Gakpo, Diaz, Jota. At right-back, you’ve got Conor Bradley. I think in terms of importance, I think Virgil will be the most important one to keep, then Mo and then Trent. But we want players who want to play for Liverpool so if they want to go, thank you very much for what you’ve done, you’ve been great servants.
As long as they do what Henderson did in his last year, and Fabinho and Mane and Firmino, right till the last minute they gave 100% for the club then they left. I’ve got no problem with that at all.
Q: Any concerns after a testing week for Liverpool and Arne Slot?
John Barnes: None whatsoever. No concerns from me, despite it being a difficult week for Slot and Liverpool. First of all, look at the consistency Liverpool have shown over a prolonged period of time.
How consistent have they been? We lost to Nottingham Forest, we lost to Paris Saint-Germain, now we’ve lost to Newcastle.
We’re far and away the most consistent side in the Premier League and obviously the games that we’ve lost are cup matches that you don’t want to lose, because it means that you go out.
But you can’t take away from what he’s actually done, because if you’ve seen when an iconic manager has left clubs, be it Alex Ferguson, be it Arsene Wenger, you can see a dip in that club, but at this club there has been no dip.
PSG and Newcastle are matches you don’t want to lose because you go out of the competition. You’d much rather lose in the league because you’ve got a cushion.
Liverpool’s superiority in the Premier League has surprised everybody, me included, because I thought when Klopp left, I thought we’d be challenging, but I didn’t think we’d be by far and away the most consistent side in the Premier League, which we are.
The Premier League is a hard division and a hard league. You can see what’s happening to Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea. Everyone’s dropping points, but we’re not.
So yes, we lost in the Champions League against a very, very good Paris Saint-Germain side.
And in a cup final, anything can happen, and we didn’t perform well. Slot has to be very level-headed. Similarly, if we had won the cup, we shouldn’t think we’re the best team in the world and we’re fantastic. Liverpool have to be very level in terms of how well we think we’re doing and we’re okay.
Q: Does the international break help them recover from defeat?
John Barnes: Had they won, it would be the same thing. All the top players immediately focus on what’s coming up next. Top players don’t celebrate mid-season, if you do that, it’s when you’re on the open top bus in May or June.
You have to focus on what’s next. All they have to focus on is the league. They’re not in the FA Cup, they’re out of the Champions League. They wouldn’t have prioritised the domestic cups over the league. Now it’s doubly important for them to focus on the league. It’s doubly important, because now this is all they have to play for.
Q: Does the CL exit make it impossible for Mo Salah to win the Ballon d’Or?
John Barnes: When Rodri won it, they talked about why he won and not Vinicius Jr. But Vinicius Jr. is still around, and you have Jude Bellingham, and you have other players who are sitting in the Champions League.
I think that the Ballon d’Or winner normally comes from someone who has either done well or won the Champions League.
Obviously, depending on how Mo now goes in the league, if he then scores lots of goals in the league between March and May, he will have a chance of winning it.
But I think that obviously going out of the Champions League, doesn’t help his cause. As much as I’m saying that, I don’t think there’s any real standout player this season.
When Halaand had scored 60 goals or whatever he did, and Rodri had a fantastic season and won the treble, they were standout players, but I don’t think there’s any player or any club who’s playing consistently well to then say, definitively, they’re definitely going to win the Ballon d’Or.
Although Liverpool are out, if Mo has a good end to the season with all the goals he’s scored so far, I think that he would have a chance. But obviously, going out of the Champions League has probably worked against him.
Newcastle
Q: Will Newcastle be able to kick on to the top four after winning the League Cup?
John Barnes: Newcastle would like to think they could challenge for fourth spot, and they have done for the last two or three years, and they got in the Champions League.
Is winning the Carabao Cup a springboard? I don’t think that this is. I don’t think had they not won, they wouldn’t have been challenging.
Your league form is really a springboard for you to challenge either to win the league or to be regularly in the top four. Winning the cup doesn’t mean all of a sudden in the league you’re going to be winning the league or finishing first or second.
It’s a feel-good factor that it brings to the city, to the club. If they celebrate too much, they may not win too many matches. But I don’t think all of a sudden they’re going to be winning the league because they won the Carabao Cup.
Q: Will success help them keep their players?
John Barnes: Would Isak turn down Real Madrid if they came in for him in the summer because he just won a Carabao Cup? This is the nature of football. What it does is it gives Newcastle a fantastic thing, that they won a trophy, and these players have won the trophy. So they’re delighted, but that’s not to say they’re now going to want to stay at Newcastle for the rest of their career.
This is the way football is, and we don’t have to worry about it. It’s a bit like saying all the Liverpool players are going to be here next year – they’re here now, that’s the most important thing.
Similarly, had they lost, I don’t think that necessarily means that players would want to leave because they lost the Carabao Cup, so no it doesn’t become easier. That’s not an issue
Manchester United
Q: Who has been your flop of the season or disappointment of the season (can be a player, manager or entire club)?
John Barnes: Manchester United have good players, they’ve got a good manager, but the harmony, the togetherness, the spirit, the belief has not been there.
And they’ve got good players. All the players at Man United have had a good manager, so it’s just the situation at Manchester United has been disappointing.
From a footballing perspective I do believe they should be doing well, being consistent, and maximising the potential they have. They’ve been the biggest disappointment.
Tottenham have, too, but they’ve had injuries.
Q: Have Man Utd got worse under Amorim?
John Barnes: Well, it’s not just his fault, is it? Sometimes you need to look at the players, the whole team. Because when Van Gaal was there, he got sacked. He’s a bad manager, is he? And Mourinho, he is a terrible manager? David Moyes, terrible manager too.
It’s not just always the managers, you can’t blame them all the time, so let’s get away from that fact. If you keep blaming managers, everything just repeats itself. If you just keep wanting to blame the manager, then nothing will change at Manchester United.
If you’re always changing the manager, and then the manager goes to another club and he’s successful. How bad really is he?
The responsibility for togetherness and harmony, falls on everyone. But if you keep blaming the manager, everyone absolves themselves of responsibility. Players, hierarchy, they say it’s the manager’s fault.
Arsenal
Q: If Arsenal had bought a striker, do you think they would still be in the title race?
John Barnes: If you look at them last year, they scored more goals than Liverpool without a centre-forward. They scored 91 goals, Liverpool scored 86 goals. They conceded less than everybody else.
If they get a centre-forward to score goals, other people will score less goals. I remember when Liverpool had Mane, Salah, Firmino, we didn’t get any goals from midfield, and they’d scored 90-odd goals between them. Then we thought, let’s get some more goals from midfield, which would mean we’d have to score 140 goals. That’s not going to happen.
Man City were the same. Haaland is not going to score 50 goals if other people are scoring goals. Arsenal’s problem isn’t scoring goals.
What happens is in a game where they haven’t scored you say well that’s obviously because they don’t have a centre-forward. But sometimes they score six in a match, people then don’t talk about it.
I think they got the balance right, and I think had they got a centre-forward, other people would score less goals.
They’ve had a couple of injuries in key positions. I’m looking at Saka, looking at Martinelli, without them, they haven’t got that attacking threat.
I don’t necessarily think that it’s the fact that they haven’t got a centre-forward because of course Man City have probably got the best centre-forward in the world, haven’t they? And where are they in the league? If they had a defensive midfield player, who would have been better off? I think Arsenal’s fine.
And because of the way they play, are they going to use the centre-forward?
They may have to change the way they play, which means they may not be as creative for other people to score goals. I don’t think a lack of a recognised 9 is necessarily an issue now – you can score goals without them.
Champions League
Q: Who is your favourite for the Champions League?
John Barnes: The Paris Saint-Germain team now, compared to when they had Neymar, Mbappe and Messi, they’re much more balanced.
I think that experience counts for a lot and their lack of experience in the Champions League means they got to a final once but they haven’t won it.
Regardless of how well Madrid played, for me they’re the favourites.
Barcelona are still a fantastic team, but they’ve got young players, they’re inexperienced in terms of their youth, not as a club.
And I think that really, for Madrid, that’s the most important thing for them to win, more than La Liga, so I think that they are the favourites.
Obviously, Paris Saint-Germain from the point of view of being a very, very good team, well-balanced team who can cause anybody problems.
For me, Bayern Munich could be strong as well. They’re not setting the world alight in terms of the performances, but they’re going along nicely, Harry Kane scoring goals.
So they would also be there, but I think Real Madrid for me would be the favourites.
Q: (How) can Arsenal beat Real Madrid over two legs?
John Barnes: What gives Real Madrid an advantage is they’ve got individual match winners. Mbappé, Vinicius Junior, Jude Bellingham, they’ve got players. Even if they’re not playing well, and they’re strong defensively.
I think Arsenal have to play well as a team. I don’t think Arsenal have those individual match winners necessarily.
Odegaard is a good playmaker but I don’t think they’ve got those individual matchwinners. So, therefore, if they’re not playing well, I don’t think they’ll win.
You know, you’re playing Real Madrid. They have their players, you have your players.
Of course, on a one-off you can beat them. Maybe even over two legs, but I’ll make Real Madrid favourites in that one.
International football
Q: Thomas Tuchel starts his England role in earnest this week, what do you make of the recalls for Marcus Rashford and 35-year-old Jordan Henderson?
John Barnes: Marcus Rashford is really interesting because I think he’s a player who, regardless of what he does at his club – and he didn’t do anything at Manchester United in the last year or two – for England he always does better than he does for his club.
You can look at certain players who do well for England even if they’re not playing well for their club, and I think that Marcus Rashford is probably one of those players. I think international football suits him more than league football because you get much more space.
He’s also rejuvenated a bit, and that’s why Tuchel has picked him.
Jordan Henderson? Jordan is there for his leadership qualities. He’s good around the camp, I don’t think he’s necessarily going to be the first name on the team sheet, but of course I think he’s a good captain and even if he’s not a captain, he’s a good leader.
So having him there, I don’t think it’s necessarily there for him to be in the team for all the matches. If you look at his last year at Liverpool where he was still in and around the club, because of his leadership qualities, he’s there, for his experience.
He’s very popular with the players as well, so Thomas Tuchel obviously wants to get some brownie points by picking popular players.
Morgan Gibbs-White has to be one who’s probably a little bit unlucky not to be in the squad because he’s been in the squad before and he’s having a great season for Forest.
With England, you’ve had situations in the past whereby, even with Gareth, that you’ve had players in the squad who may not even have been playing regularly for their club but have warranted their place in the squad. Rashford and Jordan, are a little bit like that.
Q: England obviously went close to a trophy at the Euros last year, do you think they have what it takes to go all the way at the World Cup in 2026? What will it take to get them over the line?
John Barnes: We have to be lucky. We’ve had better England teams than this one. If you think about Harry Kane in his prime and when Raheem’s turning it on in his prime, and all those players from the squad who got to the Euro final and the World Cup semi-final.
I don’t think that this team is better than that team, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t go and win it or get close.
All you can ask from them is to maximize their potential, win the games they can and then with a bit of luck they can get there. They’ve had opportunities and it’s not to say that if they don’t do it, Thomas Tuchel has failed because Gareth couldn’t do it either.
I don’t think that this team in terms of where they are now is better than one a few years ago. I think it’s going to be harder for this team than it was for Gareth’s team.
Q: Curtis Jones is in England’s squad, what have you made of his season so far under Arne Slot at Liverpool?
John Barnes: He’s had a great season because the type of football he plays suits Arne Slot more than Jurgen. So as much as he played under Jurgen, with Arne, he’s had a more prominent role because that’s the way they play.
He’s very good on the ball in midfield, obviously he’s not as up-and-down or dynamic as a Milner or a Henderson or a Fabinho. In terms of his technique and his ability on the ball, he’s very composed, he’s much more technical than them and that’s what Arne Slot wants.
So he’s featured much more than he would have under Jurgen and been a much more important player. So yes, he’s had a great season because the football suits him.
Q: Is Tuchel the right man, going by his press conference?
John Barnes: I think the England players, they like a softly-softly approach, which I think Gareth was perfect for.
But maybe what they do need is a kick-up the so-and-so, because of course to win you may need someone like that. That’s what Tuchel does.
I don’t think English players respond to that and that’s not Tuchel’s fault and that’s wrong because you should respond to the manager no matter who he is.
So that for me is going to be the biggest dynamic of how this team handles Tuchel because I don’t think Tuchel is going to change. You know what he was like at Chelsea, but we don’t know where he is right now. We will find out soon enough.
The dynamic between a manager and his players is the most important one.
Tuchel’s a good manager, he’s a very astute tactician, but as to whether the players are going to respond to his style, that is unknown.
Q: Is Tuchel’s combative style suited to international management simply because he spends less time with the players and that could allow him to be quite intense?
John Barnes: The thing about it is his combative style, you have to be that way because you don’t have a long time to get your point across. The players are coming to you on a Monday for training, you’re playing three or four days later, and you haven’t even seen them for six weeks.
So you do really have to get your point across and if it means getting your point across by shouting and screaming at them so they listen, I think that’s what he will do, because that’s who he is anyway.
There are certain managers that I don’t think will suit international football. I don’t know him well enough, I know him in terms of his combative style, but if you want to talk about Guardiola, for example, I don’t think international football will suit Guardiola.
Because Guardiola’s way of playing has to be all-encompassing for the footballer every single day of his life.
Whereas for an international manager, you’re getting other people’s players, and trying to put in a system in two days. Guardiola’s way of playing is very comprehensive, which means you have to understand it.
As for Tuchel, I’m not sure about him. From a tactical point of view, I know he’s a good tactician, but more to do with the fact that he is shouting and screaming at people, that’s what he normally does.
Q: Thomas Tuchel’s Jack Grealish comments indicate that the door is open for him to play for England in the future, but Jack’s comments about not being a “stop start player” indicate that he knows he has to play week-in and week-out. Given those comments, do you expect him to move on from Manchester City in the summer to go and become a regular elsewhere?
John Barnes: He’s won everything, so I don’t know how harmful it is, in terms of being a regular player every single week.
Jack is a bit of a maverick, so when he’s at Aston Villa he did whatever he wanted, played wherever he wanted, he went and dribbled around the goalkeeper, he could do anything.
At Man City he was more of a disciplined player. And as much as he did well, he played on the wing when he got the ball, but he’s held his position. He didn’t wander everywhere to get the ball and maybe that’s who Jack is. Maybe he has to be at a club whereby he’s the number one person who’s given a free role to do what he wants.
He’s not going to get that at Man City. So as much as he won everything at Man City, he was probably more influential at Villa than he was at Man City. As to whether he’s happy, being a bit part player at Man City, I’m not sure.
Q: Who would you put in the number 10 role?
John Barnes: We’ve got a number of very gifted midfield players, Grealish being one of them. But it depends on how the team is going to play. From a discipline point of view, because he’s been used to Guardiola, Phil Foden will probably be the most disciplined one.
Palmer, obviously the way he plays for Chelsea, he has a free role at Chelsea. As much as he’s doing well, how are Chelsea doing? So it’s a question of whether you want to look at the team, and that’s probably why Cole Palmer left Man City and Guardiola’s was happy for him to leave, because obviously he felt that Phil Foden and Jack Grealish were more disciplined.
So it depends on how Tuchel wants to play. If you also play with more disciplined people in their positions, rather than saying you are the free role number 10, you’ve got to do whatever you want. But then again, we also have Jude Bellingham, who I see as more of a number eight, but he wants that free role to do what he wants.
For international football, because of the discipline and the understanding he has based on Guardiola, Phil Foden would always be that player who has a bit of discipline, but he also has that flair and that ability to do things.
But it really depends on Tuchel, and him saying he wants to play like Chelsea, so Cole Palmer would get the free role. But for me, I’d always look at Phil Foden for that position.
Celtic
Q: Will Rodgers want to try in the PL again?
John Barnes: Well, it’s a question of will the Premier League clubs be of interest to him because he’s not going to go to Liverpool, Arsenal, Man United, Chelsea. Tottenham possibly, but it’s a question of is he going to have to come back to being a team in the Premier League who is going to be a mid-table team or maybe a Newcastle, finishing seventh or eighth.
He’s going to win the league most years up in Scotland. He’s been to the Premier League a couple of times, and he’s gone back to Scotland. It’s up to him what he wants. It’s a very easy life for him up there. Celtic are the best team and Rangers are struggling. I don’t think he’ll be able to come back to the Premier League to a title challenger.
If he then says he wants to come back to the Premier League because he wants to be playing in a tougher competition, week in, week out, to show what he can do, that’s up to him.
Q: What do you make of suggestions they underperform in Europe?
John Barnes: That’s never going to change, is it? Because what are Celtic going to do? Celtic is never going to win the Champions League.
If they can get through to a knockout phase or to get through to a group stage, fine. But that is never going to change. Not in his lifetime anyway.
So I don’t know what they expect. I don’t know why they want to beat him with a stick on that, once they get unrealistic expectations. But that’s never going to happen for any Celtic manager or Rangers manager, or the two best teams up there in the near future. So I don’t see why those expectations are there.